#9: Icy Liu on her wine journey and her podcast, "Ungrafted"
How wine took one woman from NYC to Burgundy and her latest project yet.
If you have to ask me how I first became acquainted with Icy Liu, I would say it was over Instagram first and then came conversations over Whatsapp. At the time, she was still based in Beaune and seemed to have the dream wine job (who wouldn’t want to live in Burgundy and dealing with the top domaines that Becky Wasserman represents?). I’ve always admired her drive, her boundless curiosity and intense passion in wine and I hope some of it rubs off on me. Here’s our conversation over her wine journey, her thoughts on the wine industry today and her amazing and informative podcast, “Ungrafted”.
Our conversation is lightly edited for clarity.
How did you get into wine? I know you first started in finance in NYC...
I got into wine through my love of food. I grew up in Taiwan so you will understand the fascination with food! After being miserable in finance I thought I should give wine a shot.
You are living the dream! How did you end up in Burgundy?
I worked in wine in NYC in the fields of retail, auctions, and distribution and was at a point in my wine career where I wasn't sure what I would do next. I thought it might be a good time to experience life in France and improve my French so I would be able to speak with vignerons in their native tongue. (I would also get to eat butter and croissants every day!) So I moved to Burgundy for my Wine MBA in 2018 and found a job with Becky Wasserman after my program was over.
What was it like to be a foreigner and living in a small place like Burgundy? What kind of difficulties did you come across and likewise, success?
For a town with 20k+ inhabitants Beaune is actually pretty diverse because so many foreigners move there for wine. There are also tons of great restaurants, which I wouldn’t be able to live without. I really enjoy making new friends and most people have been very nice and welcoming. It's never easy to deal with French bureaucracy but it's a good chance to learn to take things easy and not expect a 24-hour turnaround for everything!
What is it like to work with winemakers directly in Burgundy, vs your previous other wine jobs in NYC?
Being able to interact closely with growers is what I love most about wine actually. I have learned so much about vines, plants, and the ecosystem. The team at Becky Wasserman & Co was incredibly supportive in letting me work part time with Charles Lachaux and Tomoko Kuriyama in the vines in 2020. Though I had done harvests before, I had never worked in the vines and cellar during the rest of the year. The ability to experience a complete one-year cycle of this work, along with my Enology Diploma from the University of Burgundy, have really solidified my knowledge of viticulture and winemaking. This wouldn’t have been possible in NYC.
Who do you think is doing exciting things both in Burgundy and other parts of the world?
My definition of an exciting domaine makes not only great wines but also pushes the boundaries in the cellar and in the vines. Most importantly, the grower must have deep concerns for the environment and the people who work for them, which for me is true sustainability.
In Burgundy, Tomoko and Guillaume from Chanterêves. Tomoko is part of a group of female vigneronnes called “Mi-Filles Mi-Raisins” whose goal is to promote "discreet" Burgundy appellations. Because of Tomoko and Guillaume's superb farming and outstanding winemaking, their wines outperform wines that are ranked higher in the appellation system but taste subpar. They use low fat milk instead of sulfur to combat powdery mildew, alternative sprays through Eric Pitiot's program, and have elevated the canopy to increase shadow and combat climate change. They are thinking of making their own compost in the future. In the cellar, they have decreased sulfur use while still making beautiful, clean wines. I also love what my friend Catharina Sadde at Les Horées is doing. She is planting massal selections of chardonnay, pinot beurot, and pinot blanc from different nurseries and on various rootstocks to compare their quality and adaptation to climate change. Both Chanterêves and Les Horées made carbonic Aligotés in 2020 that I am very excited to try! The Bret Brothers make such great wines and have a deep concern for the environment. They have introduced a cuvee called "Zen" where the total added sulphur is less than 20 mg/L. The other wines are also low in sulphur (added before bottling): 20-30 reds and 40-50 whites. They have done tasting trials of vines using different biodynamic treatments so that they can better understand how viticulture translates into their wines. They use concrete eggs and carbonic maceration for their whites which is fun. They hedge their vines by hand (to avoid soil compaction), plough only under the rows and use whey to combat powdery mildew. To my knowledge, Charles Lachaux is the only grower in Burgundy to do 100% no till, which is exciting in terms of carbon sequestration and seeing what is possible for Burgundy given that the vines are planted to such high densities.
In the Loire (Layon, Savennières, Hill of Chaume, Quarts de Chaume), Emmanuel Ogereau and Vanessa Cherruau (Château de Plaisance) are planting hedges and trees every 30 meters to bring in bats to eat grape vine moths. Bats are able to eat 30% of their body weight of moths in one hour. Both Emmanuel and Vanessa both take a lot of pride in their teams and hiring women where possible. Paul recounted that when he first met Vanessa, she apologetically told him that her wine bottles were not heavy (wine bottles are the heaviest contributor to a winery's carbon footprint). I knew I would like Vanessa right away 😊
In Alsace, the Deiss’s pay attention to biodiversity with their philosophy of complanation (field blends), and after planting fruit trees, they have observed a decrease in the need for copper.
What other winemakers would you love to work with and go visit if we are able to travel right now?
I interviewed Mimi Casteel on tilling and Steve Matthiasson on water conservation. I would love to visit them and ask them a bajillion questions about viticulture and our planet.
What do you think are the most important issues in wine today?
Climate change and labour practices.
If you look at California, 6 of the top 20 largest wildfires in California’s history have occurred in 2020. Wine country has been affected for 6 consecutive years, most severely in 2017 and 2020. In Burgundy, harvesting in August is the new normal. There have been 7 vintages with August harvest dates since 2003. I’m not sure how you can say climate change is not real. It's important for both makers, sellers, and drinkers of wine to think about what we can do about climate change, ranging from cultivation practices to sequester carbon and maintain soil health and the carbon footprint from the vines to the consumer. What packaging are you using to wrap your bottles? What type of shipping are you using to ship your bottles? As wine lovers, we should be especially attuned to this because grapevines are an agricultural product that is so sensitive to any climatic shifts.
My friend Evan Watson works with a research and advocacy organization called La Isla Network which protects agricultural workers from the effects of heat stress. This is a huge issue in Central America’s sugarcane industry which has caused a fatal epidemic of heat-related kidney disease that has killed tens of thousands of young men. The stats are astounding: in one community of 350 families, 100 of them are headed by widows since the men have all died from heat stress. The organization found this issue in the labour chain of Flor de Cana Rum and it also happens with other liquor companies. There have also been heat related deaths in wine. In May 2008, Maria Isabel Vasquez Jimenez, was a 17 year old pregnant woman who worked an 8 hour shift in 100 degree heat. In October 2020, then Senator Kamala Harris introduced the Asunción Valdivia Heat Illness and Fatality Prevention Act, which will protect all US farm and other workers from heat.
There is not only heat to be concerned about, last year Italian natural wine producer Valentina Passalacqua and her father were accused of caporalato, which some NGO’s have labelled as modern day slavery. As many natural wine enthusiasts have mentioned, it seems silly to care about how much sulphur is in the wine when the people harvesting the grapes are working under such poor conditions with no protection.
Ungrafted is a novel wine podcast that presents a comprehensive overview of wine featuring people from immensely diverse backgrounds, not just winemakers. What was the original goal in creating this podcast?
The goal for the podcast is to highlight the environmental and societal aspects of wine. Episodes are a deep dive into one specific topic so hopefully after 40 mins of listening, you will become more knowledgeable on a certain issue.
I know you have been very active in attending wine dinners and speaking as part of wine conference panels in Taiwan so far. Any plans while you're here and other projects that we should be aware of?
For Women in Wine Taiwan will be pairing Taiwanese night market food with wines made by female winemakers and with paperclipjenn we are doing a Zhongzi and Wine Workshop for Dragon Boat Festival where I will be pairing Taiwanese lu wei and zhongzi with a Lustau Palo Cortado Sherry and Vignoble du Rêveur’s Singulier Orange Wine.
Thanks Icy for your time and please listen to her podcast “Ungrafted” wherever you get your podcasts: https://www.ungraftedpodcast.com/.